Delivered-To: cgu@qos.ch
Subject: Re: Request to use log4j as Java logging standard instead of JSR 47.
To: Graham Hamilton <kgh@eng.sun.com>
Cc: cgu@qos.ch
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3  March 21, 2000
From: AndyDePue@kyrus.com
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 06:57:41 -0700
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GV-TYR/GV/Kyrus(Release 5.0.3 |March 21, 2000) at 06/14/2001
 09:56:05 AM


Thank you for your response.  I am grateful that you are willing to look
into Ceki's concerns.  I believe it would be possible to integrate many, if
not all, of Ceki's issues into the logging API without too much difficulty.
I understand these things aren't "quick fix" in nature, but far easier to
change things now than later, when the API is in widespread use.  Of
course, and I admit I am biased, I believe the best solution would be to
make log4j the standard logging API.  It is fully developed, tested, and
ready to roll.  If Sun announced log4j as the standard API, I firmly
believe the developer community would herald the decision.  The only people
the decision may cross would be those who spent their time and effort
forming JSR47, at which point it becomes a political issue.  Even so, I
understand if it is not possible to replace JSR 47 with log4j and would be
willing to settle with integrating Ceki's suggestions into JSR47.
Again, thank you for your desire to consider this further.  If there is any
way I can be of service in this area, just let me know.

         - Andy



                                                                                                                          
                    Graham                                                                                                
                    Hamilton             To:     AndyDePue@kyrus.com                                                      
                    <kgh@eng.sun.        cc:                                                                              
                    com>              Groups: Don't Expand                                                                
                                         Subject:     Re: Request to use log4j as Java logging standard instead of JSR 47.
                    06/13/01                                                                                              
                    04:35 PM                                                                                              
                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                          



Andy,

Thanks for your interest in the logging APIs.

As Ceki noted, IBM has been a very active participant in the
JSR-047 logging JSR.  When the logging JSR was initiated in
January 2000, IBM had both the log4j work at IBM research and
the JLog work at IBM Tivoli.  The Tivoli work built on IBM's
earlier product logging experience and included features like
internationalization that were then not present in log4j.
IBM's involvement in JSR-047 was focused on their JLog
experience which had seen a lot of use in IBM products.

However, Ceki also provided useful input from log4j, and that
has influenced some parts of the logging APIs.

In designing the APIs we've tried to draw from numerous
sources and we've tried to support a wide set of requirements.
It's inevitable that when there is a new standardization
effort it will make some different choices from some of
the existing APIs.  We went through a similar experience
with JDBC.  It built on a bunch of earlier work, but it
wasn't exactly like any of them.  Unfortunately we delayed
adding a JDK logging API for too long, and I think it
is important that we resolve that in Merlin.

Unfortunately we are quite late in the Merlin cycle and
we can't really accommodate major API changes at this point.
However, I will be studying Ceki's comments carefully.

                                                   thanks
                                                      - Graham

AndyDePue@kyrus.com wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>   I have been involved on at least ten projects where logging has been
> necessary.  With this much experience logging (both building logging
> libraries and using third party libraries), I can tell you that when I
> discovered log4j, I had never seen anything like it.  It is, simply, the
> best logging package I have ever used.  Not just the big things, but the
> little details are what make it great.  After a thorough review of JSR
47,
> I see it falls short on many of these details.  In all honesty, if JSR47
> became the logging standard, I would never use it as long as log4j still
> existed in an up-to-date state.
>   Please have mercy on us developers and heed this appeal!
>
>        Sincerely,
>                 Andy DePue